Ep. 223 - Lisa Heisner: When Your Politics No Longer Fit Your Faith

0:00 [music] are listening to Stories from Real Life, a podcast by engaging storytellers for engaged story listeners. Here's your host, author and journalist, Melvin E. Edwards. Hello again and welcome to another episode of Stories from Real Life. I'm your host, Melvin E. Edwards. Thank you for joining us for the podcast where real stories are so much more interesting than fiction.

0:44 My guest today is Lisa Coughlin-Heisner, an educator whose career has taken her from teaching high school English, literary analysis and debate, to navigating complicated transactions in her family's real estate business. Today, she teaches Bible and music to preschool and elementary students at a faith-based school in St. Petersburg, Florida. Lisa, welcome to Stories from Real Life. Thank you so much for having me, Melvin. Well, we're both alumni of John Brown University in Arkansas. We also have something else in common, and that's what we're going to talk about today. We're both former Republicans who are outspoken opponents of Donald Trump. So before we get to why you left the Republican Party, tell me some of your memories from JBU.

1:25 I have so many. What a wonderful college experience. Met wonderful friends. I don't think you and I were in the same class, but we had a lot of mutual friends, knew each other. Just great education, great experience. I was very pleased with the preparation I received there to go out into college. Education as a professional and wonderful memories of friends and growing in the faith, growing as an adult, fantastic professors, really good experience. Right. So where were you from before going to JMU? Well, there's a good question.

2:06 My parents were both born and raised in the Tampa Bay area where I live now. However, I did not grow up here. My family, my husband and son and I followed my parents here in 2000. They had come back to build a business, be closer to their parents to care for them. And we followed them here. I grew up in the Boston area, in Phoenix metropolitan area most of my life, and my relatives, my grandparents, cousins, aunts, and uncles lived here in the Tampa Bay area. This was always where we would come for holidays to visit. But I grew up in other parts of the country because my dad, just like a lot of us, left hometown for his career and then ultimately came back to be closer to family.

2:57 Now I have lived here in Central Florida on the west coast of Central Florida for 27 years. So this definitely feels like home. This is the longest I've been anywhere in particular. And I love it here. I love having settled back here. So you're an anchor, is what you're trying to say. Absolutely. Absolutely. And Native Floridians are a rarity, let me tell you. So in the family communities you came from, how closely were being Christian and being Republican connected? When my parents, my understanding is in the 60s, when my parents met and married, my dad was strong Republican. My mom was a Kennedy Democrat, and they would argue about politics.

3:41 But when they came to know the Lord... I was, I think in kindergarten, I was about five years old when they came to faith. And at that point, I think both of their philosophies melded and they found themselves like a lot of conservative evangelicals. Following the Republican Party and voting straight party with the one exception of Jimmy Carter. I believe my dad has said he was the only Democrat that he ever voted for. And that was for faith reasons. Politically, I don't think he would have aligned with him. My dad was a hardcore Republican.

4:23 And he While I'm sharing my testimony, I just want to mention his because it's so interesting. He is 82 years old, lifelong conservative Republican, and he is in the same place we are. He is speaking out against what As a godly man, as a man that follows Jesus, as a man that's concerned about the state of our country, the testimony of us as believers, I am so proud to see an older gentleman who so many are set in their ways. He is determined to follow the Lord. I was raised in that environment. To answer your question, I was raised in an environment where When we went to church, you'd have the little voter guides that I'm sure they still have in many churches.

5:22 We don't promote politics necessarily from the pulpit, but along with your church bulletin this morning, we're going to pass out a voter guide. And you must vote this way because you have to stick to the pro-life party. And I find that where that has gone is very interesting, but... That was my background. And up until just 10, 12 years ago, I was still thinking along those lines. And it's very strange to me now. Same here. I have most of my life. I know it changed the way other people saw me.

6:03 And it changed. It's been a long process. To this day, there are still times when I hope I'm wrong about something. But so far regarding Trump, I haven't been wrong about anything. Not because I'm a prophet or anything. Some things you just follow somebody's life and what they've done is probably what they're going to continue to do. Of course. Right. There's one thing that has issued that's puzzled me for a while are the very simplistic argument, well, you just hate.

6:51 And there's no reason for that hate. You're just hating on someone. Now that I'm teaching, we call it Christian education, now that I'm teaching Bible to little ones, boiling down really what our faith is about, what we believe, is a great way, teaching for me, is a great way for me to come back to terms with what I really believe. And there is a vast difference between loving someone and trusting someone. And when I have to explain to a child that Who asked, well, based on what Jesus said, do we have to love bad guys? Well, the answer, of course, is yes, we do. We pray for them.

7:32 We understand what our Creator wants for us. We understand our relationship with our Creator. We understand that we are all sinners. We understand those basic principles. Loving someone, praying for them, praying for their heart to change for their best life, as well as praying for them not to cause harm to others. Is loving, but you don't get in a van with a stranger, right? If you see patterns of behavior, if you see patterns of speech that Jesus said quite clearly exposes the heart, exposes motivation, and you see that character and those patterns of behavior again and again and again, this isn't about love.

8:17 This is about trust. This is about saying that This is someone who should not be in a leadership position above other people. This is someone who does not demonstrate values of concern for others over concern for self. That seems self-evident to so many of us. And I think there must be a spiritual blindness going on here because for so many of us, and I don't even mean just believers, I mean Atheists, I mean, a lot of people who just want what's best for humanity are saying, why can't the rest of you see this? And because of my background teaching high school English for so many years...

9:03 And working with kids on persuasive argumentation, on forensics and debate. There's logic issues here that are so problematic. And as believers, we should have wisdom. We should have insight. We're seeing a lack of that that to me is truly terrifying. And that's what's getting me. There are serious logical disconnects and not just logical, but scriptural disconnects in what Jesus taught versus what we're seeing supported politically by our former tribe. Yeah. And one thing that's, there are two things that are seriously problematic for me.

9:46 One is just how mean people feel the need to be. Regarding their opponents, I never call them enemies or opponents. I see this online all the time, especially on X. I've been called the N-word twice this week because somebody had a difference of opinion. And then the racism is the other part, which those two things sort of are interconnected. People feel more emboldened to be public about how they felt privately for so many years. And I think they think that that's a That's a sign of being brave. That's a sign of being their authentic selves when it's really just a sign of being a racist.

10:27 It just comes down as simple as that. It's not a virtue you want to extol. You're just showing who you really are. And actually, in some ways, I appreciate that. My dad died when I was 13 years old, but he taught me this lesson before then about driving, and I really have carried it forward. You always want to keep dangerous drivers in front of you. Because you can see them and you're not reacting to them. You can keep a distance between you and them, a safe distance. If they're behind you and you don't know they're dangerous, that's when you're at risk. And I carry that into politics. I want to know who is not trustworthy.

11:08 I want to be able to see them. I don't want them to keep quiet. I want them to say what they think. And then I decide how I'm going to respond to it. Absolutely. I think we're seeing that both politically and spiritually right now. I am convinced that there is exposure occurring. I think God's up to something. Sickness that too many of us, myself included, and there is, I have confessions to make, there is some shame in that, that it's taken such extremes and so long in my life to become aware of things that I feel like I should have been aware of sooner.

11:51 But you're right. I feel that There is an exposure taking place of heart issues. And one of the problems I am seeing in this environment of white conservative evangelical support of truly fascist hateful politics is Exposure of a heart problem. And you said it right there. I think I've been amazed at posts I've seen on social media that were blatantly racist, that I think individuals that posted them may not have identified it in themselves, but the rest of us can see it.

12:36 And there is a heart problem that is inconsistent with Christianity, with following Jesus Christ. That is being exposed right now. I think three primary problems I've been able to identify and they interweave is a heart issue that is me first. Me and mind, my kind first. It's not just MAGA. We see it with MAGA. But it is antithetical to what we believe as Christians. That my rights, my concerns, my... My chance for worldly success, however you want to put it, I'm first.

13:18 I come first. We've seen that with the rise of Trump. We've seen it with COVID, which to me was very, very telling. Behaviors and attitudes. I will tell you, in addition to Trump's rise, the death of George Floyd was a major turning point for me. And that's one that I'm, I have to admit, I'm a little bit ashamed of. But I think if you go back to Rodney King and the LA riots in 92, I was just coming out of college, starting as a new professional, vaguely aware of what was going on in the news, but had no idea...

14:07 I was not looking at the history of it. I was not looking at the attitudes that had given rise to the situation. I, like a lot of white Americans, would flip on a few minutes of the news and see inappropriate behavior rioting in the streets and think, oh, well, that's just wrong. And it wasn't clicking. I, as a white Christian, primarily raised in Christian schools, received a Christian education myself and have taught in Christian schools, got very little of the civil rights movement. I was taught very, very little and did not have an understanding and appreciation.

14:49 So I think number one, and it isn't just with racial issues. I think we're seeing it straight across the board, like you said, with anybody who falls under the category of other. We're seeing a heart that is not Christlike of me first. And if I am not first, I am being persecuted. You know, if the little things that have exposed us over the years, something as simple as the Merry Christmas issue when you walk into a store, heaven forbid other people would be recognized if you don't recognize me. Me and my faith as being primary, I am suddenly, how dare you, I am suddenly being persecuted when other people are being, because other people are being considered.

15:38 Wowza, how did we get there as Christians? And then COVID exposed so much of that. Trump has exposed that. There is a mentality that to me is frightening. Number two is, The taking God's name in vain, and a lot of people have been addressing this, a lot of people that are like-minded like us, there's a lot of great Bible teachers out there, a lot of people that I follow that have been saying, perhaps it doesn't mean saying God's name. Here's another example. I take the Bible very seriously. I very much doubt that details in the Bible are accidental and are worth skipping over, ignoring.

16:38 If we look back at the sin of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, it wasn't merely disobedience. It was disobedience that separated us from God. But it wasn't just that. There were specific details given there that I find fascinating as a language person. God didn't say, don't eat bananas. And if you eat bananas, you're going to... No, it was specifically the knowledge... The fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Say that right. The fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That's interesting to me. That's just a detail that I find very fascinating. And in a day and age right now where we've got Christian leaders, Christian pastors and fellow Christians around us, Clinging to a Republican Party that has gotten so far from the teachings of our Jesus and antithetical to our faith and are saying, you know what?

17:39 We're all sinners. We've got to overlook what he's doing. But heaven forbid this one biological man that has decided he's more in tune with his feminine side and is wearing it. Heaven forbid. And I think, what did scripture, let's look at the Old Testament prophets, let's look at the teachings of Jesus, let's look at the writings of Paul. What was emphasized again and again as being important? What is it that causes the greatest harm to the most people? What concerns God? And then after we consider all of that, what fixes the problem? It's like we're ignoring the gospel and all of scripture and And nitpicking, we're picking on a very, very small group of sinners, supposed sinners.

18:27 And of course, even there's arguments there that are valid on both sides. But a small group of people over here who are demonstrating certain symptoms. But as far as the rest of it goes and the harm that it's causing, yeah, we're all fallen. So why chase after the Epstein files? I just think we are so misfocused. I think we are playing God in a very dangerous way. And based on what I see of Scripture, I think a lot of these people that are the most convinced are the most lost. And I feel like I can go back to Scripture and show that. Who were the Who were the only people that Jesus had no grace for, no tolerance for?

19:14 What was the only miracle he performed? The one and only that caused death and destruction. There was only one. He brought life. He brought healing. He brought sustenance, food to people who needed it. He brought hope. But he destroyed that one fig tree with its leaves, advertising. I'm sure all the other fig trees at the time were barren. There's that one tree that's advertising, look, look, look, I've got life. And Jesus said no to that hypocrisy. You're done. You're out. And he had the same attitude toward religious leaders who said, we've got it all together and are teaching other people their brand of playing God and calling the shots and self-righteousness.

20:01 And Jesus said no. I think the white, evangelical, conservative American church is really spiritually at greatest risk right now over all the lost people that they rail on. I really do. I believe that. And it concerns me. This is my former tribe. I'm a believer in Jesus. I want to make sure I follow him. I get it right. And oh my, I'm worried. I'm worried about them. I think I got you riled up here, didn't I? You said several things that I was thinking, okay, I'll put a pin on that so I can come back and respond and put a pin in that one. And then after a while, I just pulled out all the pins and go, I'll just keep going forward.

20:42 I have a lot of thoughts going on at once. All right, so what was your initial reaction to Donald Trump's entry into politics? All right, confession time. I, like a lot of people, voted for him. I voted for him in 2016. That was the first year, right? 2016. And I think, interestingly enough, I've wondered about this going back and thinking... I think there were a few reasons for that. One was I had not come to the realizations, obviously, that I have now. I was still in that mindset that as a Christian, I should hold my nose if I have to and vote conservative Republican.

21:23 I believe now I was wrong, but that was what was so ingrained in me at the time. I just felt like, okay, I've got to give this guy a shot. I have a theory, I don't know that it's true, but I do have a theory that a lot of us who are not, I'm not the kind of people person that picks up a people magazine and is really into celebrities and celebrity lives and your Kardashians on TV. That stuff just doesn't particularly interest me. I think that can probably be said for a lot of people of faith. That's not where I'm going to spend my focus on entertainment. Because of that, I, like a lot of people, I think, was largely at the time unaware of Trump's track record as a businessman, of Trump's past support of politics, of his behavior, of his interviews, of his past marriages, of patterns of behavior.

22:19 I was unaware. After that time, I did go back out of curiosity and read some Vanity Fair interviews that he had done back in the 90s that were appalling. Appalling about his personal life, about his attitude toward women, about what he was doing going around Europe, deciding whether to remarry or just have his flings. Not that it necessarily would have affected the platform, which is the argument a lot of people give, but I was not aware of his character as a human being. And I wasn't following it particularly closely. I have a feeling that a lot of people...

22:59 And I have found that... Amazingly interesting and profound because it requires no comment. One question that kept coming up in my mind the second time he ran was fellow believers saying, I'll take cheap gas prices over mean tweets any day.

23:45 And I thought, isn't that an interesting statement for people who follow Christ to make? What spills out of our mouth doesn't matter. The exposure of the heart doesn't matter. As long as I can get the cheap prices I need, the rest of it is inconsequential. As long as it doesn't inconvenience me, that's what they're thinking. As long as I'm not inconvenienced, it's too bad if you are. That's the attitude. Yes. Yes. And we're getting back again to a heart issue there and that exposure of a heart issue. If I get what I want, what you want doesn't really matter. And how different can that be? How contrasting can that be from what Christ taught us?

24:28 But I found that fascinating. I thought we have, I mean, what an example of it seems setting aside the The concept that character matters in leadership, which was said time and time and time again with Clinton in office. And now those things just don't, they don't matter. And I'm thinking, what did our Christ say about that? Are you sure? If you're enjoying today's conversation, I'd like to invite you to visit MediaWellDoneLLC.com. That's where you'll find everything we do at Media Well Done, from this podcast to our growing library of books.

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25:55 I do want to give my own perspective on my initial reaction to Trump's entry into politics. You mentioned not being interested in celebrity news or celebrity gossip or those kind of things. I've known about Donald Trump. So I was well aware of his track record. And I can remember where I was when he came down that escalator to announce he was running. I was sitting in a dining area of a hotel in Birmingham, Alabama. And I was there with my son, who was playing an American Legion baseball tournament. And there was another one of the coaches there. And he said, what do you think about Trump running? And I said...

26:36 Nobody's going to take him seriously. Boy, was I naive. It came from a couple of different places. One, having been a Republican, not just a voting Republican, but an active Republican. I worked for the party. I worked in the party. I worked for elected officials in Texas state government, a state senator, lieutenant governor, and a governor. So I was an insider in this state. So I thought, there is no way this party is going to support somebody with his moral baggage. And then I saw his disapproval ratings or his approval ratings, either way you want to look at it. And I thought, he's not going to get above 30%.

27:18 There's no way he's going to win a primary. And then all of a sudden we had 16 nominees and he didn't need to get more than 30%. And that's how the ball started rolling. He sort of topped out at 30%, and it just kept going from there until he got to the general election. And people disliked Clinton so much, they decided Trump was the lesser of two evils. And that's why I believe he was elected. The second time, him getting whatever percentage he got in 2020 and then winning in 24, well, I... I do want to back up because I want to connect this to something you said earlier about George Floyd in 2020.

28:01 As a black man, I have never, I hadn't ever been as felt as vulnerable as I did in 2020, as specifically as a black man in 2024. I never felt as vulnerable as I did as a black Christian in the church to the point where I don't even really trust most churches now. It's been hard for me to get past it. And I've sat next to so many people who have basically told me that I was a useful prop for them. They haven't told me that directly, but their actions certainly have.

28:41 And that's hard for me to get past. And I don't know how I do. I don't know how long it'll take. I do what I can. I believe, at least I certainly try to reflect the character of Christ and my personal relationship with Him and have other people see Him in me. So even when I'm online, my objective is to never make my... Disagreements personal. I try not to ever call people names. I may be sharp with them at times, but I'm a writer. So in my mind, I'm just being, I'm tapping into my talent, we'll say.

29:22 Right. That's sort of a selfish way of looking at it. But I know sometimes I cross the line, but I try not to ever make it personal because I'm looking at a fellow image bearer and I'm supposed to treat them that way. Yes. Yes, and it's challenging. And one of the thoughts that I've had many times recently, I feel like the black Christian community in America has known for generations, sadly, what Some of us white Christians are just now figuring out. And as emotional and frustrated as I get, and there have been many times when, unlike you, I have not been gracious.

30:10 I have reached the end of my rope and post my screed on social media. I think For my brothers and sisters in Christ that have been well aware of this problem, this inconsistency and the use of our faith to oppress others, to demean others, to use others. I am so awestruck by people who have borne the burden of seeing what so many of us have seen for a short time and frankly feel ashamed about it. I've had this conversation with my father and my husband because they feel largely the same way.

30:54 I know my dad, again, in his 80s, is saying, I just didn't get it. He's talked about growing up at a time when playing cowboys and Indians and the cowboys were the good guys and the Indians were the bad guys was just part of American culture. Nobody questioned any of this. And you had no reason to stop and question it when it doesn't affect you personally. Going into real estate for the 12 years I was in real estate and I entered the family business when my mom was terminally ill. My son had just graduated from high school. It was a good time to make the change. And they needed the help at the time. And I enjoyed it for a time, but my heart is in education.

31:37 But when I entered real estate and did some studying and understood the laws that we have in real estate to protect minority groups who had been disadvantaged for so long, knowing that financially home ownership is... That's a foundational building block. That's generational wealth right there. And having Black veterans not having the same access to VA loans, not having the access to The more prestigious neighborhoods. There has been such inequity for so long.

32:19 And I think what I found shocking was having been born in 69, after the death of Martin Luther King, after what we often think of historically as the height of the civil rights movement. I was wildly, blissfully, shamefully unaware that in my lifetime, I have dear friends who have this wonderful blend of families of different skin tones. They couldn't have taken their grandchildren to the beach. They couldn't have shared in my lifetime. I live five minutes from the Tampa Bay beaches, right over the bridge. And we couldn't share that. Melvin, you and I, Our parents and grandparents could not have shared the same beaches when we were little in our lifetime, not in their life, in our lifetime.

33:11 I, or public pools here in where I live, I cannot. I cannot wrap my head around that. I think I thought for so long, this is past history. And it just, there's no excuse for it anymore. I have gotten so, again, it's having taught logical fallacies and how to debate, how to write. I have been amazed at the attitudes that I have found from people who are And again, in leadership, people who have been, I'm trying not to name names, maybe I should, people who have been admired as martyrs, people who have been for the faith.

33:57 And again, it's kind of like Trump. And I'm using it as an excuse, but it isn't a fair excuse anymore. He's more than exposed what he's about. But I think there are too many people who trust pastors, Christian leaders, people in the public eye. And so they just go with what they say. And they don't investigate for themselves and go back and listen to these individuals' podcasts. Not just Yeah. They're saying things like, reparations are ridiculous.

34:40 I never owned a slave, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're past this. They have all these opportunities. DEI is unfair. They're saying all this stuff. And then, and then, have the audacity to say, these talking about, talking about slavery, talking about civil rights, talking about crime statistics. Talking about barbarism among Native Americans and how we as white people brought them schools and hospitals. I want to say, hang on. You as a white person are taking credit for the schools and hospitals, but you're not taking blame for what's been done.

35:22 Yeah, yeah. Wowza. Again, the heart is me, me, me, me. Me, me, me. My rights. What you're infringing. You're taking away my tax dollars for this and blah, blah, blah. You're I shouldn't have to wear a mask and my children shouldn't have to wear a mask just because other people are dying. How far away from the teachings of our Lord have we gotten? And one of my getting back to Trump, one I haven't heard people address this and I think they need to. I can't. The straw man arguments go both ways. And I'm very, very tired.

36:03 And I'm sure you can appreciate this. I am an independent voter with libertarian leanings, libertarian with a heart. I don't know what I would call myself. I don't know. But I am fascinated when people will come at me if I criticize Trump online and people will come at me and say, well, you're just a hateful liberal. And I'm thinking... Again, straw man arguments. You have no idea and you're not listening to me. So what's the point of the conversation? But I want to be careful not to do that to other people. So I'm prefacing that that way to say, I can't tell you what people mean to say, but I can tell you what I hear when they talk, what my brain translates. And if I'm translating it that way, so is every Atheist who sees the hypocrisy, so is everybody else.

36:52 When they say things like, when my dear friends say things like, we voted for a president, not a pastor. Here's what I'm hearing. What I'm hearing is Jesus' Sermon on the Mount doesn't work. I'm hearing it's fine for church on a Sunday morning, but everything that Jesus preached that turned world values up Loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, caring for those that are marginalized, those that are in need, not laying down our rights for others, putting others first. All of those worldly values he turned on their head. And what you're saying to me is, in the real world, that doesn't work.

37:37 We're voting for a president. We're voting for a leader, not a pastor. Therefore, we need to vote worldly values because this works in the real world. And I'm thinking, I'm back to thinking, what does it mean to be a Christian? I think there are too many people, and I saw this having been in Christian schools, having been in Christian ministry, worship ministry my whole adult life, having been in evangelical churches. There is a mentality that it literally just means... My ticket out of hell. Somebody preaches a fire and brimstone message and I walk an aisle and I pray a prayer and I say, yes, Jesus Christ is the Son of God. He died on the cross for me and my sins and therefore we're done.

38:21 I'm good, taken care of, got my ticket. And I know most of these dear people would say, oh, no, no, no, no, that's not what we mean. But I saw as a Christian teacher in Christian high schools, this inoculation. Life doesn't have to change. Your life doesn't have to change. As long as you can write in your Bible a date where you made a decision, understanding what Jesus taught and following him isn't really a requirement. That's just, that's extra. And so I'm back to asking the question in a time when believers, people that claim to be believers, are supporting things that are so not true.

39:03 Not in line with the teachings of Jesus. I have to say, do you really follow him? Do you believe what he taught? Because when you say we vote for a president, not a pastor, I say, I think what you're telling me is the worldly values work and that's what we're going to stick with because it works for us. I was smart enough as a kid, I remember when we studied economics for the first time in school, And political movements, when we studied socialism and communism and all these things, I remember thinking, even at the time, capitalism isn't a biblical concept.

39:44 Capitalism just works best, and it works best because we're sinful. It works best because we live in a world where I should get what I worked for, and that's the end. That's the end of it. It's a good working system, right? By the world's definition, it's a good working system because that's how this world works and this world has fallen. Jesus came to say something different. And I'm not saying he was anti-capitalist. I don't mean that. There is this heart value of I take care of other people. It is not all me first. And that is what heart and mentality seems to be driving these days, my former tribe.

40:32 And I think now as a believer, I reject that. Yes. I believe, well, unlike, let's say, certain charismatic or maybe fundamentalist churches who believe that the more you have, it's because the more blessed you are, maybe. But then what do you do with it? That's what I believe is the dividing line. If God has blessed you with this wealth, how are you blessing other people? Absolutely. Absolutely. And when you go to the pro-life issue, I've had my pro-life credentials questioned since I've been opposing Trump. And I don't think anybody can question my credentials, my heart on that issue, on that issue specifically.

41:16 And I don't talk about this a lot because I don't need to talk about it. I just do what I think needs to be done. My mother essentially was willing to sacrifice her life to give birth to me. After when I was born, she was in a coma for a month after I was born. And I won't go into all the details of that. She came out of that, but she passed away when I was 25 years old. And so from the age of 25, I had already lost both of my parents. And so I started thinking, how can I... And so many people think that as long as they vote on that issue by proxy, they don't actually have to do anything.

42:05 They just say they're pro-life and that's all that needs to be done. I believe it's a one-to-one issue. If I see a young woman in a crisis situation, it's not my position to condemn her. It's my responsibility to find out how I can help her. If I don't want her to have an abortion, what am I willing to do to help her overcome the needs that cause her to think she needs to have an abortion? Is it financial? Is it because her parents are going to kick her out of the house? Yes.

43:01 I'm not afraid to say if any president has ever paid for an abortion, I would be willing to bet money. And I'm not a betting person. I'd be willing to bet money that Trump would be that person. So I don't put my faith on that issue. And that issue on him. He's not how I define myself as being pro-life. I define myself as being pro-life by what I'm willing to do for a young woman, a young couple who are in that crisis situation. And this is definitely the first time I've ever talked about that. And publicly, in a forum like this, I may have talked to one-on-one, but that's just something I, who I am, and I don't feel the need to brag about that.

43:46 My credentials are what they are, and I don't care what anybody else says. So if they say, well, you're just for killing babies, well, if that's what you want to think, it doesn't change what I am. Yep. Yeah. And you touched on something that is another issue that I found very important lately in recent years in my life and in my spiritual walk. It's that human connection. Jesus made the point in scripture that, well, and so did Paul, again, going back to love being the most important thing. If we If we want to be biblical and we want to understand the overarching message of the gospel, it's personal.

44:28 Our creator wants a relationship with each one of us. And I think we are really missing the boat when we make Either theology or ideology, whether it's political or something else, general life philosophy. If those come first, Jesus made the point that the law was made for humans, not humans for the law. And when he and the disciples were accused of breaking the Sabbath. And there is such a critical point there. And you made it. And I love that. The whole pro-life issue has been a tricky one for me in recent years, and I've come to the same conclusion you have.

45:10 I am not pro-abortion at all. I mean, I am very much pro-life. Where I've struggled is coming back to scripture when people are saying, well, if you're biblical, you have to vote pro-life and anti-LGBTQ. And I think we can talk at length about both of those issues quite a lot. But what I'm thinking is, how is it that you're taking two issues that are Hardly talked about in scripture at all and ignoring, you're ignoring, you're throwing out 98% of scripture or more to focus on two really small issues.

45:54 And what it comes down to is loving people. As believers, we're supposed to be loving people and helping people, helping individuals. And I think when our philosophy and our ideology takes center stage and love is secondary, we're We end up in trouble because there was a time, again, confession time, there was a time when I was in my 20s, maybe even in my 30s, where my attitude about the pro-life issue was if abortion is murder, then it's still murder. It's still murder if it's rape, if it's incest, if it's a child who's developed early and is now pregnant and life is at risk.

46:36 It's murder, period. But is that how we ought to be coming at things as believers? The one issue that Jesus solved was the issue of sin. So our response to people as believers has really nothing to do. It's fascinating to me that people will say, but it's a sin, talking about whatever, whatever issue, homosexuality or this, that, and the other. They'll say, well, but it's a sin, but it's a sin. And most believers should stop and say, yeah, and you're You're upset. You are upset at people for having a symptom of a disease that your theology teaches is pervasive.

47:22 The whole world is dying. And you have the answer. You have the cure, supposedly. So why are you picking on a small group of people for their one issue? Similarly, with the pro-life issue, I know my Jesus. I observe him in Scripture. I will say, and I am not an expert, caveat here, not an expert, haven't studied this at length. I have heard educated people, and I would be curious to know more about this, say that the Hebrew people in Jesus's day... As well as your modern day traditional Jews have allowed for abortion, that this is not something that is a Judeo-Christian value going back to the beginning of time.

48:10 I've also heard it said that that's reflected in the creation account of God breathing, that it was actually first breath. I'm not here to argue that because generally speaking, I'm pro-life. I don't want to see abortions take place. But I know my Jesus. I know who he came for. I know who he ran to. I know that he came to save the hurting, literally and figuratively, lives and spiritually for eternity. He came to reconcile the hurt. The woman at the well, the adulterous woman about to be stoned, who was being used and manipulated clearly by the religious leaders.

48:55 He came for them. He came to reconcile them. So if my testimony as a believer is to say that fetus, that baby, let's go ahead and call it a human, that you are caring, there is more important, that life is more important than your life. I can't, your mother... Other believers can absolutely make that call. But my testimony cannot be to another woman. I don't care that you were raped. I don't care that this happened to you. That undeveloped human being inside you is more important than you are.

49:35 That is not the testimony I want to give them. And that isn't reflective of the Jesus I know and who he came for. We can probably talk for hours about what life really is, the concept of life. Do we not think that There is value to time on earth, to influence on other people, to the love that we have and the connection that we have to other human beings. I want to be careful to say a 40 year old person is more valuable than A two-day-old infant, but when it comes to influence and impact on the world and everything, that is a life that is of value.

50:18 And I can't throw that away. And I'm tired. I am hurt and tired by our poor testimony and the inconsistencies in the pro-life movement. I am appalled at, and I hear it, I've heard it too much, people who can say, Let's move on from the Epstein files. It doesn't really matter. And look at these women who lost their childhoods, who were abused for years, who have been tortured, who have been through hell, and say, we have got to save these unborn babies and give them a chance. But these women just, they don't need justice.

51:01 They're survivors. Once they're born, they're on their own, basically, is what they're saying. Is that pro-life? That is not pro-life to me. No, it's not. Absolutely not. It isn't. It isn't. And the testimony is heartbreaking. So when we have a hurting world that is looking to us and saying, these are the things you care about and you... You don't care about me. These poor women that we hear about, these poor women that have given their testimonies in Congress who wanted the baby that they were pregnant with, had a massive health crisis and couldn't get health care. The baby was not viable, was not surviving, and they were on death's door and couldn't get the doctors to help them.

51:49 That's not what we as Christians are about. And we cannot have that be our testimony. We can't hinge everything on, I'm not saying they're not important issues, but biblically speaking, these are not the most important issues. The Lord talked again and again through his prophets, through Christ's teachings, through Paul's writings about the marginalized. And we have a leadership right now who claims to be pro-life and demeans. With every word that comes out of his mouth, insults, demeans, talks about foreigners, talks about dark-skinned people, talks about whoever, demeans, demeans, demeans.

52:35 And we have Christians saying this is what great leadership looks like. And they're not understanding, and it's heartbreaking, how detrimental this is to our testimony. And you said it, our testimony has got to be, the love needs to be one-on-one, case-by-case, Do it the way the apostles did. You change hearts one at a time and you love people. And if you have the answer, that the answer is that. It is the love. It is heaven forbid we say it. What is it that they're saying now is the great sin of empathy. I have learned so much in ministry.

53:17 One, I don't know, I'm talking, talking, but I do want to share one thing. Okay. One more. I got involved through my church for a while. Unfortunately, I can't be active in it now because of my teaching schedule. But when I was in real estate and had the time during the day, I was able to be involved in homeless ministry. We've got some fantastic ministries going on in the Tampa Bay area, really wonderful for the homeless and housed neighbors. And making that one-on-one connection changed my mind. It's changed my mind about so many things. I feel like we've got to get out of our bubble and talk to other people. One thing I did not know, I did not understand and have learned, and it makes sense actually, is there are a lot of homeless addicts who were not addicts when they became homeless.

54:07 Fell into that community. And the only psychological break they had from their horrific circumstances was to get high, to get away, to mentally get away for a time. Talking to people, meeting people rather than us. And I am not saying we've got so many great worldwide, your World Vision and Compassion International and whoever, lots and lots of great organizations that help people. Wonderful, wonderful. But when we go out and meet these people that we're helping and talk to them about what their experiences are, what their life stories are, what their needs are.

54:48 It's life-changing for me. And my heart has changed getting to know people, having friends that are part of the LGBTQ community, whether or not I agree with them. And again, there's a whoop. Yeah, I could do a whole story, a whole podcast on that. We need to know people and love people. And we do not need to say, Love the sinner, hate the sin, and then talk about condemning these groups of people and you don't know one of them. And it's not your church. Our church, our pastor preaches on this is a sin and this is a sin and yeah, Yeah, yeah. Do any of those people? Are they even in your church?

55:28 Well, no, of course not. It's condemn, finger point. And that is, again, inconsistent with the gospel. That's not what we're doing. I am not the Holy Spirit. My job is not to decide which sins matter and convict other people. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. My job is to love, to befriend, to minister to, and unconditionally, because it's what God's done for me. Amen. All right. So as we begin to wind down the conversation, I've got one more question for you. Yes. All right. For someone quietly questioning a political identity that is tied to their faith, family or friendships, what would you want them to know?

56:09 I don't believe that we all have to be of the same mindset. I think what is most important is that we don't fall into the propaganda of othering. Of assuming that the other party is trying to destroy our country. It doesn't benefit, this is hard for me to say, it doesn't benefit Donald Trump ultimately to destroy our country. It doesn't benefit liberal Democrats to destroy our country. And in fact, all of these people in Washington, D.C. are making boatloads of money on You know, keeping things running to their benefit.

56:50 So I think what we need to do is, my strategy right now is to vote against anyone that has an R after their name. And the only reason I choose to, and that is coming from someone who honestly hasn't really changed my political views that much. I'm trying to clarify them and align them with scripture. But I That's my personal strategy only because I have seen what I think what was good potential go off the rails entirely. I believe that financial responsibility is incredibly important.

57:30 And putting our nation tens of trillions of dollars more in debt is irresponsible. And that's just one of many issues. That's not even a faith issue. That's just a basic responsibility issue. So We need to be... Biblically and politically active as believers. But we need to stop listening to people who say biblical means just this and go back and understand it and look at it for ourselves. Align ourselves with what and then get involved. I think getting involved at the local level is absolutely amazing. Interesting things are happening in Florida. You may have kept up with this, but David Jolly, who was my Republican president, Was he senator or congressman?

58:17 Back years ago and for Pinellas County, for where I live, ex-Republican is now running as a Democrat for governor. He is not a liberal. Now, of course, all of the smear advertising that Brian Donalds is doing is to paint him that way, but he is not. He is a reasonable moderate and he is a man of character. And I love that. I feel like, gosh, he would be a good leader. I I am not registered as a Democrat. I don't feel like I have to be. I don't have to say because these people, my former tribe, are unbiblical. That necessarily means the other party is or I think we have to We have to be thinking people.

59:01 We have to be reasonable people. I think there are a whole lot of moderates in our country that are really tired, really exhausted. And I think there's a lot of hope if we banded together to get our country back. Because this far, far right movement we're seeing worldwide is fascist. It's dangerous. It's dangerous. And the people that are saying, oh, how dare you compare it to 1930s Germany and Hitler? These are people that are not paying attention. The path is this. The excuses are the same. The demonizing and minimalizing of other human groups is the same mentality that we've been through this in history time and time again.

59:42 It has to be stopped. You don't have to be a, you don't have to be communist. You just have to say, this is not okay either and do something. I think if there can be a local grassroots movement, I think we could do a whole lot of good. I agree. And by the way, I'm in Texas. So this November's election, we're sort of ground zero for where we go next. So let's keep that in mind. Things could get worse before they get better. I have a feeling. I agree with you. And I think whether or not we want it, we are here for such a time as this. That's where faith comes in, saying, I cannot believe I am watching, I am observing this.

1:00:29 I never thought in my lifetime I would observe our country coming to what it's coming to. And I can tell you, Trump is not even my greatest concern. It's the fact that we have so many Americans. We're going to go around this mountain again. It's the fact that he can get elected that concerns me. It's not just about him. It's about how he was able to rise to power and that we have so many Americans who think, This is what we think we want that terrifies me. I don't think this is over. I don't think this is over when he's gone. That sounds discouraging, but the good news is we're here at this time for a reason.

1:01:12 And I believe the Lord has. I tell my little kids this. You're not just created special. You're on this earth right now for a purpose. We are too. And it may be really hard times to come. But we've got to do what's right. And we've got to speak to what's right. Absolutely. And that is the perfect way to wind down the episode. So, Lisa Heisner, thank you so much for sharing your story and for talking openly about your faith, convictions, and what it means to change your mind. I appreciate you being here. Thank you so much. It was such a joy to reconnect with you, Melvin, and to speak my thoughts today. Thank you for the opportunity. Yeah, I enjoyed reconnecting about our JBU roots and exploring how our lives have unfolded since those college days in Northwest Arkansas.

1:01:56 Wonderful. So thanks again for joining me. Thank you. And to everyone listening, thank you for joining us on Stories from Real Life. If this conversation gave you something to think about, share it with someone who you'd like to talk it over with. And be sure to follow the podcast for more conversations every Tuesday. That's it for this episode of Stories from Real Life. Until next time, don't forget to shine your light wherever you go. That was Stories from Real Life. Join us again next week for another great storytelling journey. See you next time.

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