Ep: 191 - Craig Randall: Stop Scoring Teachers. Start Growing Them.

0:02 on this edition of Stories from Real Life with Melvin E. Edwards. Today's guest is Craig Randall, a former school counselor, teacher, coach, and principal, and the author of Trust-Based Observations, Maximizing Teaching and Learning Growth. Craig trains school leaders around the world on a strengths-focused observation approach designed to build trust, increase teacher risk-taking, and improve teaching and learning without the fear-based baggage many educators associate with evaluations. We're going to get practical, what leaders should do in classrooms, what to say in follow-up conversations, and how to build a school-wide culture where growth feels safe and expected.

0:42 This is Stories from Real Life with Melvin E. Edwards. And today's story is Craig Randall's. Stop scoring teachers, start growing them. You are listening to Stories from Real Life, a podcast by engaging storytellers for engaged story listeners. Here's your host, author and journalist, Melvin E. Edwards. Hello again, and welcome to another episode of Stories from Real Life. I'm your host, Melvin E. Edwards. Thank you for joining me for the podcast where our personal stories remind us how much we can learn from each other.

1:26 Our topic today is teacher observations. They were designed to improve instruction, but my guest today says the model is all wrong. Craig Randall says the way we've done them for decades often creates fear and shuts down innovation. So Craig, welcome to Stories from Real Life. Thanks for having me on, Malvin. Appreciate it. Yes. So when you think back to the moment you first felt truly seen as an educator, what did that leader do and how did it change you? I think it was really when I was getting my principal certification and the man that was running the program was teaching the supervision class, which is really about teacher evaluation.

2:07 And he just said, you need to be in classes every day and it needs to be about supporting teachers and and helping them grow. And you need to focus on strengths, ask them what they were doing to help students learn and what they might do differently. And there was just something about what he said that it just felt like it was about care and support. And I knew it really hadn't been about that. And it was like the light bulb moment for me, for sure. All right. So in your experience, what happens inside a school when teachers feel safe enough to take risk in front of students? And then what happens, what's the leader's role in creating that kind of safety? Yeah. Well, I mean, if we want to get better at something or improve, we have to be willing to try new things and we won't always succeed when we immediately try new things.

2:53 And so if we're in a situation where we don't feel safe to try new things, we won't improve and we won't make a better process. product, which is teaching and learning for our kids. So when a teacher feels like that, you just the way we do it right now, they're afraid to do it because of the ratings of pedagogy. And so when that's there, they know they can try something and have it be wrong and know they're going to get support. And so really, it's just about them feeling free versus they feel tight. Frankly, a lot of the times the way we do it now, they call it the dog and pony show where teachers, they put on a pretend lesson when they know you're coming in to impress you and tick all the boxes, which isn't, it's not good for the kids or the students or the teacher or the principal really.

3:41 And when that's off, they can just be themselves. I think they build better relationships with kids because they feel safer and And then just room for growth happens. And I think what leaders do is to create that is you really, really work to build trust with teachers. You focus on their strengths, what you see they're doing. You stop putting numbers and ratings by them. And when you focus on strengths and you focus on all these little moves that build trust, you see them change. We'll see teachers get tears of joy when they have a reflective conversation after an observation because they're not used to having their strengths shared with them.

4:21 And when that happens, then everything just follows and changes after that. All right. So you've served as a counselor, teacher, coach, and a principal, as you mentioned. What problem kept showing up in every role that eventually became what you set up as trust-based observations? What? It's a great question. I mean, I think in every place you've got kids that are, you know, the percentage of it might vary, but in every role, there's traumatized kids out there and it affects their ability to learn.

5:01 We know Maslow's hierarchy of needs and And when kids come from issues where, I mean, sometimes it could be food on the table, but sometimes it's emotional safety. And so whenever those issues present themselves, they interfere with learning and they make learning harder. And so whenever we have situations like that, we've got to find ways to... Like we do with teachers, we've got to find ways to build relationships with those kids so they begin to feel safe, so they can actually start to learn and not have these traumas interfere with their learning as they're trying to protect themselves from whatever's gone in their life that they feel they need to carry over to everywhere else in their life to protect themselves too.

5:46 Okay. Just to make it simple, we're going to start calling this TBO the rest of the interview. It's trust-based observations. Yeah. So you built TBO around reflections rather than gotcha. So what's the story of a teacher who surprised themselves through that reflective process? Boy, we had a teacher and he was a nice guy, had good relationships with the kids. He taught advanced placement, so higher level high school economics classes. And he did pretty well. The kids scored pretty well, but maybe there were 20 percent of the kids that were getting twos and ones, which would not be considered success.

6:26 which in most settings is pretty good, but we were in Korea where the pressure to get into the right university is enormous, and that wasn't very strong. And he was super traditional. He had a lecture and a PowerPoint, and he would lecture all class period long, and then they'd have some questions, and then they'd have their tests. And we knew it wasn't as engaging for the students as – as was possible. And that was maybe a hindrance to them learning more. And because we built enough of a relationship with him, we offered a suggestion. And when we offer suggestions, we always ask permission to offer a suggestion. People are always more willing to be open to a suggestion when you ask permission as opposed to just telling them because really nobody likes to be told.

7:13 And it was about adding cooperative learning practices into his teaching. where the kids tend to learn from each other. And he kind of works around and supports their learning. And he decided to take us up on that. And we paid for him to go to, he found a conference that was a two-day social studies teacher conference on cooperative learning. And he came back the next year and he completely transformed his teaching. He still had the lectures, but he recorded them, and that was more like the homework, the screencasting of the homework. And then in the class, he had the kids in these groups of three or four or five, and they worked with each other through these structures all period long, almost every day.

7:55 And the next year, the test scores, 100% of the kids passed with a three or higher. So it really made a significant difference, and he felt safe to take that risk because we built that trust with him. Nice. Nice. So what's one small human moment that something a principal could do in under a minute that quietly deposits trust with a teacher over time? I think it's a really simple one. Start noticing strengths and sharing the strengths that you notice them. And when you share it, be specific. If you heard him say something like, oh, you guys, when I was 12, I did da-da-da-da-da. You were sharing of yourself as a teacher when you said that.

8:35 And when you're specific about what you share, like we can say good job to somebody and say, We appreciate it. But when I say, Melvin, great job leading that interview. I really felt like I really felt like as a guest on the show that it was really comfortable. Like that means more to you than if I said, Melvin, good job on the podcast. And so when we do that and share that and are liberal with that and genuine, don't don't share things that you don't believe, then it does an enormous job to to change relationship and build trust. All right. So if you could give every school leader one hope-filled message about observation and feedback, what would that message be?

9:20 My message would be, I think most leaders that do observations don't like doing it because of the way we have to grade pedagogy and all that. And I would just say, it doesn't have to be that way. Just because we've done it for the last 25 years, there were ways that we did it before then. There's actually ways from 55 years ago that are brilliant ways to do it. We can change. And when you make that change or when you're willing to explore that change, you'll actually find a part of your job that's not a drudgery, actually becomes a joy, and you will do the most important. part of your job, improve teaching and learning because teachers feel safer. And then your job becomes more fun because of it. All right. So you mentioned not having a mentor teacher when you were a young teacher.

10:04 So what did that absence, how did that absence shape the kind of leader you eventually became for others? That's a really good question. I think sometimes if you're good and you're quiet and you don't cause a problem, sometimes you just get lost in the background. But everyone wants to be noticed and appreciated. And so... I think for me, building an individual relationship with each teacher I work with and differentiated to them because everyone's a different person. I think that has really been important to me as I spend time with each teacher or even when I was a principal, my office managers or whatever, make every single individual feel valued and noticed is probably the biggest thing.

10:52 So tell me the story of Warren Aller. What was the single most important thing he taught you about being in the classrooms every day? I mean, he's the mentor that we talked about earlier. He's... man, he just exudes passion and warmth and care. Like that was just so clear. And I tell him he's quite ill right now, actually he has cancer. And I tell him every time I see him that like trust-based observations only exists because of you. And so those things that I told you at the very beginning that you have to be in classes every day, that exists because of him. That you have to focus on strengths, that's because of him.

11:36 That you have to build relationships with teachers, that's because of him. That you start not by telling teachers, but by asking them questions. And by asking them questions, you're saying, I value you as a professional. So we ask, what were you doing to help students learn? If you had the chance to do it again, what, if anything, you might you do differently? All of those things became what is the core of trust-based observations, these 20-minute unannounced observations. But even more than that, when we were in that class, we practiced teaching. we had to bring 10-minute mini lessons on whatever, and we had to practice. And we did it a little differently than we do now because that was the base that we built it from. But because we practiced, when I got my first assistant principal job, I had confidence because I'd actually done something enough to be proficient at it in this way that was very alternative.

12:27 And I got lucky because my first principal there, when I told him I had this crazy idea about observation, said, let's do it. But when I go out and I speak and I ask this question all the time, I just say, during your principal certification, when you did your supervision class, did you practice observations? And the entire time I've done that, and I'm guessing I'm I've maybe spoken in front of maybe 10,000 people total now. I've had one person raise their hand. So not only did he show me all these things, but then we had a chance to, cause it's, we can all talk about anything all we want, but without the ability to actually become proficient at it through doing it and getting feedback on it, how can you improve? And so that, that all of that together is really what he's done.

13:08 And he still supports me. He kind of like, I'm a second son to him and he's like a second father. And yeah. Yeah. Alright, so TBO emphasizes strengths first. Who would be a skeptic to that type of a setup? Would it be most likely to be teachers, parents, administrators, the district level? No, I don't think parents. I don't think other teachers. I mean, everyone likes to be complimented. I mean, everyone likes to be recognized for things that you're doing well. I think we've had a system embedded for so long, and if we go back into the the whole history of it.

13:49 It started with this report that came out in 1983 called A Nation at Risk that said the state of education was in a horrible place and it was largely inaccurate and designed to evoke fear. I think so Reagan would win re-election in 1984. But what happened at that point in time was that the mindset became increased accountability and rigor is the way to improve teaching and learning. And I think in some fields out in the business world, that might be the case. But teachers are all like, they're all heart and soul and about making a difference in the lives of kids. And so... What's happened is really since 1983, so 40 some years now, it's just been this continuing thing about more accountability.

14:32 So I think people that are going to be resistant to the strengths focus are the people that are attached to what's out there, the people that have been doing what they've been doing for the last 25 plus years, because for them, that's their livelihood. And they've made a lot of money and continue to make a lot of money on it, if I'm speaking correctly. really plain truth and and a lot of people are reluctant to change and change is slow and it's like well this is the way we've always done that so let's keep doing it that way but the research shows two huge studies show it does not improve teaching and learning it increases teacher dissatisfaction it increases teacher stress and trauma and it actually causes them to feel less confident in their abilities to teach so And I think honestly, they're well-intended.

15:15 I don't think anybody's maliciously thinking, but I think the people that are against strength base are people that are just, they're slow to change and they just, this is the way it's always been. And there's a comfort in it, even if it's not great. So let's just keep it the way it is. All right. So you've kept two questions at the center of your model. What were you doing to help students learn? And if you could reteach, what would you change? Why those two questions and why do they work? Well, one, I'll say the placement of where they happen in the conversation works because normally in the traditional way, I start by giving you all your scores and ratings. So instantly you're defensive. So at the very beginning, one, we don't give scores because the research says that causes trust to diminish in people not to take risks.

15:58 But two, at the very beginning, it sends a completely different message. It sends a message that you're a professional and I value what you have to say. So instantly, the whole script has been changed from the very beginning. So the placement matters. I think the reasons the question matter beyond that is, one, it sends an expectation that reflection is an expected part of practice. So I think that matters. And I think that people, teachers, a lot of times they teach and especially once they've been teaching for a while, they don't they just not that they don't plan, but they do it without thinking about why they're doing it anymore or the purpose of it or what's behind it to get to what I ultimately want.

16:39 And when you have to identify specifically the actions you were taking to help the students learn, it brings you back to thinking about it again. And my moves, my teacher moves or whatever. And when I start to think about them more purposefully, then I start to evaluate them and think, oh, this might work better, this might not, or this is something that I could add. So I think that adds it. And then I think for the same question on the what, if anything, might you change, we I mean, look, there's times when you nail it, right? Never as much as we want. But if we want to get better at it, we've got to reflect on thinking about, oh, that didn't. And you could have the same lesson and the dynamics of the two classes are so different where it could work really, really well with one and not with the other.

17:23 So you've got to go, OK, with this group of kids, what might I have to do differently? And that's going to allow us to be more effective in what we do, just like with anything. If I think about if I never think about what I'm going to do or what I did or how How can I learn from my mistakes? Not mistakes bad, just like experiential mistakes. All right. So your TBO observation form. Tell me about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'll say this again on research because I've done a lot of research. The research says any type of a form we have where we're looking at areas of teaching, if there's more than 10 of them, we lose the forest through the trees and we basically, it becomes a tick box exercise and we're not really seeing the craft and art of teaching.

18:08 So these predominant models out there, they've got anywhere from 36 to 76 different indicators of practice. So you're just putting a score on it. You're not really, really seeing what's going on. And so in line with research, we just have nine core areas of practice that that guide us and there are things that no matter what your style of teaching is like relationships and behavior management and the use of questioning and checking for understanding and feedback to help kids get better and what's my learning goal and a couple of other ones too. But so it's just manageable core stuff and so because it's so core we don't get lost in the weeds. But then the other thing is we don't put the scores on it and so not having scores allows relationship to build or maybe more accurately doesn't inhibit relationship building and trust.

18:55 And the form is highly, highly detailed. And so because it's so detailed, it allows me, as we talked about earlier with praise, to be really specific with my praise. And so that helps to build relationship. The form also, you'll never get everything on the form filled out in a 20-minute observation, which we always tell the teachers to build trust. The absence of something being filled in is not a negative. But because it's so detailed, teachers regularly say, oh, gosh, I'm already thinking about what to get better at without you even saying anything. So maybe we have a Bloom's taxonomy that lists questions from recognize, understand, apply, analyze, evaluate, synthesize, and create.

19:37 so maybe we went in there and only saw questions up to the level of analyze and we tell them not being filled in isn't a negative but the teacher go oh i really need to start adding evaluate questions so it just makes them reflect on their own and then maybe the last thing about the form that's really unique is in each one of the nine areas, it has a hyperlink to a new page that has, if you really want to dig deep into getting better. So there's already articles that are actionable articles that I could take, read and say, oh, I could start doing that tomorrow. And it's right at your fingertips. I don't have to go and look it up. And so teachers really love that too. And you talk about differentiated trusting relationships with each teacher. What does that look like in practice when a staff ranges from a first year teacher to somebody who's been there for 30 years?

20:26 It looks like what you'd imagine it would. I mean, it's like a first year teacher is going to need a lot more guidance. I mean, like one thing teacher ed programs probably in general don't do as good of a job of as we wish they would is on classroom management. And classroom misbehavior has escalated significantly since COVID. And so with a new teacher, I'm going to have to probably jump in and help more rapidly than I am with with a more experienced teacher. So those are some of the things. But even I mean, sometimes you're maybe more fatherly or parently. like with a younger teacher, not in a patronizing way, but it's just a different relationship.

21:08 But sometimes they'll have that great enthusiasm and energy. And so you deal with them and you've got teachers who have become more set in their ways along the way. But one of the things that we find with trust-based observations is the nature of the way that we do this. Teachers that have become more set in their ways, more fixed mindset, they really do start to switch back to a growth mindset in terms of being open to suggestions and growing and so i think the personalities are different and you know some can be a little curmudgeonly and and and you know every once in a while you get a more toxic personality in there and and so sometimes you have to have some uh come to jesus meetings perhaps with some of them and and and and sometimes it has to end up in a situation that you don't really want it to but you just have to like we were talking a little bit before about our kids like our kids we love all our kids equally but But what one kid needs and what the other kid needs and, you know, I'm going to whatever you need in that moment is how I'm going to behave.

22:12 And whatever you need in that moment is how I'm going to behave. And so really, it's the same way. And the process allows us to build trusting relationships with with everybody. And that's that's maybe the best part about it. So issues that we might have had traditionally don't. I think when we observe traditionally, it starts to develop a deficit mindset in me when I start to put a rating on you. And so then I start to look at what's wrong with you in terms of what needs fixing. And then when that happens, somehow I think psychologically, that makes it harder for me to see the best in you and to support you and help you grow. But when we focus on strengths the way we do, all of a sudden every single teacher I see what's possible with them.

22:55 And there's a variance, of course, from teachers that are more mediocre to teachers that are amazing. But when I look at you, even if you're not as strong of a teacher from what are your strengths, it changes everything in terms of the way I see you. And so I think I see even though each person is different, but I see you from your strengths. And that allows me to help support you more effectively. And they feel it maybe more and most important of all. Okay, so how do you balance psychological safety with professional accountability in this framework? Well, I mean, psychological safety is just what we do by building trust and building on strengths. And that doesn't mean we don't have talks about what's going on.

23:36 And so, like, we don't rate or evaluate your pedagogy, but everyone still needs to be evaluated. So we evaluate your professionalism. Are you getting your planning in? How do you get along with others? And what's your mindset towards professional growth? And so... The nice thing about those areas are I can deal with those areas, but because it's not directly attached to your teaching, it doesn't really affect the relationship in the same way. And so when something happens in one of those areas, we just address it. It's not really tied to the observation. So they end up being separated. And people will sometimes say, well, but Craig, what if it's a bad teacher? How do you get rid of them if you're not reading their pedagogy? And what I always tell people is, look, If you're not a good teacher, I guarantee professionalism and or your planning and or how you get along with others and your mindset towards growth.

24:26 You're going to have an issue in one to all four of those issues. You never have somebody that's a bad teacher and is super professional, has a growth mindset, gets along with others and plans well. It just doesn't happen like that. So it just I know that's a long winding answer to your question, but. When you look at strengths and then you change the way you evaluate, you're able to manage professionalism and relationships and psychological safety in ways that don't really interfere with each other. So how can leaders measure trust over the course of a semester, let's say? Yeah. Well, I mean, culture surveys is exposed away, but I'll tell you a story.

25:09 When we come to a school and we train, it will transform your school culture in a week. So we train schools all over the world. So we do a lot of international schools, which is like where maybe embassy people and multinational business people send their kids to school in a foreign country. And so we were at one in Cambodia and we were leaving on Friday afternoon. And the superintendent and I walked out of the building and on the way out, it was a large K-12 school. We ran across at three different times a teacher who we had not observed because during training, we only observed like a dozen teachers. And all three of them said almost the same thing. And they all had the same sort of wistful tone. They all said something along the lines of, Oh, I thought you were going to observe me.

25:54 And so in essence, what they're saying is no fair. I didn't get my turn being observed. And in the education field, like no one likes being observed. So people saying no fair. I didn't get a being observed. It's like what? And so how did that happen? It happened because teachers are gossips, really. And so as soon as the first observations happen, everyone says, what was it like? What was it like? And now all of a sudden, for the first time, you're hearing people say, oh my gosh, they told me all the things I was good at. They asked me what I thought and valued. And then everyone hears that. And then by the end of the week, people actually want to be observed and evaluated.

26:34 That in five days is creating a culture of trust. So it just... it's measurable. Like we've been to other schools where there were toxic heads before and they've, we've left and they've said, Craig, the healing has begun. You can feel it already. It just, it transforms instantly when you go to a strength space focus. Nice. So the TBA framework suggests frequent unannounced shorter visits. How does that work with logistics with administrators and teachers being so busy all the time? Yeah. Well, but if you look at a, Like the two main models out there are Danielson and Marzano. So Chicago Public Schools does Danielson. And to do a round of Danielson, you have a pre-observation conference where you talk about the day you're going to come in there and what the teacher is going to teach.

27:18 And they tell you all about it. And then you have to write that up. And then you have to go in and watch them for a full hour. And then you have to write that up. Then you have to have a post-observation conference where you go over all those scores and then write up what the teacher said afterwards. So that takes on average six hours. So if we do a 20-minute observation and a 20-minute reflective conversation the next day, I can do nine of those in the time it takes to do one observation. That means I would get to see you once a month for the same amount of time. And so it really actually becomes, I think, much easier. Teachers, when it's once a month and I have to lose 20 minutes of my planning time, People worry about that.

27:59 But what teachers, what they don't realize before they've experienced it is teachers appreciate having their buckets filled with what they're doing, what's going well once a month. And they're open to suggestions. And then when you start to see the growth in it, so you see teachers happy. So you don't like giving scores before. And now I don't have to give scores. And we're engaging in fun conversations. And now as I'm supporting your growth, I actually see you improving. Like time doesn't really become an issue because now... It's so much easier to invest my time in something I'd like to do versus spend time doing something that I'm required to do. So how do you handle the hard cases when instruction is actually really weak or the teacher is resistant, as you talked about, sort of curmudgeonly, an older educator without betraying the trust that you're trying to build?

28:48 How do you do that? Well, first off, so we don't just, there's exceptions for new teachers where we come in right away, like when classroom management's there. But because trust takes time, Renee Brown talks about the connection between trust, vulnerability, and risk taking. She says, if vulnerability's too high, people won't take risks. The way you lower vulnerability, is by, so people will take risks, is by building trust. And she has this great little metaphor of like a jar. Each little positive action is a jar, a marble in the jar. And you have to fill that marble jar up before you can, before the trust is built. And so in line with that, we don't begin to offer suggestions, except for what I told you, until the fourth visit.

29:29 But as I'm doing that, so let's say with a mediocre teacher, but even with all of my teachers, I'm looking and saying, for that teacher where they're at right now, which one of those nine areas, if I help them, is going to make the biggest difference in improving teaching and learning for that teacher. And so then when I get to that point, I ask permission, but then we talk about, okay, let's just say one of the areas in our forum is working memory, where you add purposeful reflection and processing activities in. So I'm going to say, hey, Melvin, I have a suggestion on working memory, cognitive load, especially reflection processing activities. Would you like to hear? And then I'm going to have from that toolbox of the hyperlink possibilities, I've already printed out an article that lists a bunch of these reflection processing activities.

30:15 And I'm going to say, here's a highlighter. Pick five or six that you think would be really good for you. And then we say, we don't want to do this with all of our classes, just one. So which one of your classes would you like to try this out with first? This one? Great. Let's pull up that lesson for tomorrow. So you've got high schoolers. Their cognitive load capacity is 10 minutes. Where's the first spot in there where we could build in one of those reflection activities? Right there? OK, great. Which one of these ones that you just highlighted would you want to put there? So we work our way through and then we give them choice again and we say, so we're gonna do this tomorrow because we have to have action immediately if we wanna see improvement. And so then we're gonna say, there's three ways we can do it.

30:55 I can model it, we can co-teach it, or you can do it and I can watch and give you feedback either in the moment. And so then the next day we go in and we do that. And then we have another feedback conversation. We say, what went well within your strategy? What would you like to keep working on? And how can I support you? So by the next time I see you, it's built fully into practice. And so really, I become instructional coach with that curmudgeonly teacher or with that teacher that's struggling. But even my stronger teachers, the same thing happens. It just might be the rate at which they grow changes. And so... And what we find is really people just don't say no to the offer of suggestion. And because of the way we framed it, they really do work on it. If we have the rare, rare, rare occasion, which is maybe one in a few hundred where somebody is going to be resistant or they're just going to give lip service to it, then we'll try to work with him in the subsequent visits to help them grow.

31:48 But if the resistance is still there, Like everyone else, then you do have to go on an instructional improvement plan. And so some places we do it, they'll pause trust-based observations when that goes on. Some places we'll keep doing it. But, I mean, it doesn't mean you don't ever have a difficult conversation or it doesn't mean you don't ever have to, like, eventually dismiss or non-renew a teacher. But we're still going through it in a much more positive-based framework with a genuine intention to try and help them grow and ultimately – It's up to them what ends up happening. Okay. I just have a couple of questions left. So when TBO is working, let's say peak efficiency, what changes first?

32:29 Teacher risk-taking, student engagement, or the tone of the adult conversations in the school? I think the tone of the adult conversations probably happens first because the teacher's still got to get a little bit of a vibe for it before they feel comfortable with the risk taking. And so really we're saying it's maybe 10 or 12 weeks until we would begin to start offering suggestions. Whereas the tone of the conversations and the whole tone of the building, like I kind of did with that other example, those begin to change immediately because teachers notice it and they talk about it right away. The final question of the day. You built this model across international leadership roles.

33:09 So what did working in different regions teach you about trust, feedback, and what great teaching looks like? Great teaching exists in every school building in the world. The number of teachers might vary, but there's great teachers in every building. So that's one thing. I would say that I've learned engagement and care for kids is vital for learning. And I would say human beings are human beings. We've had people say, oh, that really won't work in our country. Our people are different or whatever. And it's not. People all, we're all the same emotional beings. And there might be cultural differences.

33:50 No, there are cultural differences. But we all want to be recognized. We all want to be appreciated. We all. And so when you flip the switch to that, we're human beings are the same. So it works no matter what. So those, I think, would be the biggest takeaways. Okay. Okay. Well, it's been a pleasure having you here today, Craig. We've learned a lot, and I will share information with the audience. Thank you so much for being here, joining us from Philadelphia today. Thanks, Melvin. Much appreciated. I had a good time. Thank you. So if you want to learn more about trust-based observations, whether it's Craig's book, training, or the observation form that we talked about, check out the link that I'll include in the show notes. And if this episode made you rethink feedback, walkthroughs, or how trust really works in a school building, share it with your school leader or instructional coach who needs to hear it or want to hear about it.

34:38 So that's it for this week's episode of Stories from Real Life. Until next time, don't forget to shine your light wherever you go. That was Stories from Real Life. Join us again next week for another great storytelling journey. See you next time.

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