Ep. 220 - Patrick W. Naughton, Jr.: Saving Baker Battery

0:01 Stories from Real Life is a production of Media Well Done, LLC. You are listening to Stories from Real Life, a podcast by engaging storytellers for engaged story listeners. Here's your host, author and journalist, Melvin E. Edwards. [music] Hello again and welcome to another episode of Stories from Real Life. I'm your host, Melvin E. Edwards. Thank you for joining us for the podcast where real stories are so much more interesting than fiction.

0:41 My guest today is Patrick W. Naughton Jr., author of the upcoming book, Baker Battery Goes to War. Patrick was at an estate sale in Northern Virginia when he spotted an old black binder among shelves of books and papers. When he opened it, the military historian in him realized that this wasn't just someone's collection of World War II memorabilia. He was holding the story of Baker Battery, 881st Field Artillery Battalion, 69th Infantry Division, a history written and illustrated by the soldiers themselves near the end of World War II. So I'm excited to talk to my friend today about this incredible find and how it became the book, Baker Battery Goes to War.

1:22 Patrick, welcome back to Stories from Real Life. Yeah, Mel, great to see you again. Thank you so much for having me back on. I appreciate you being here. All right. So before we get to the book, what threw you toward military history in the first place? I think growing up, my dad was in the Army, Vietnam, and he was in the military history. And so everywhere we're laying around was all kinds of history books that he was always reading. I mean, anything you could think of, World War I, the Boer War, all this random stuff. And so that just kind of wore off on me. And he was always watching documentaries and things like that. So it definitely just rubbed off on me without me even knowing it. So you got it naturally.

2:02 Yeah, I guess I was just steeped in it from birth. All right, so you spent 30 years in the Army. At what point did you begin thinking of yourself not just as a soldier, but also as a historian? Yeah, you know, before I went to the Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, which is the mid-grade school for like captains and majors that everybody goes through in the Army. I had always been into history, reading, things like that. But it really wasn't until I got into that school environment where I was sent there for a year, where I was allowed to explore writing and publishing articles in different military journals and things like that, where I really got the bug and actually became a full-fledged historian.

2:44 I got trained there as well to be a military historian. I got the five x-ray additional skill identifier through the Army, which makes you a military historian. So that's really where I, I guess, fully became and embraced that experience. Identity for myself. And I've just, since then, you know, I've been trying to crank out books and researching and articles and things like that. And I've just really thrown myself into it. Okay. Nice. All right. So let's go back to the estate sale that started this whole process. So as I mentioned, this was in Northern Virginia. What made you open that worn black binder in the first place? Yeah. So this was a, it was a hobby I picked up going to estate sales. So believe it or not, it was a hobby I picked up at the end of COVID.

3:26 Yeah. So in the D.C. area, which is where we were stationed at the time, so this is like 2021, I think, everything was still shut down. So you really, you know, you couldn't go to movies, you couldn't go to restaurants, things like that. But for some reason, you could go to estate sales. And as long as everybody was socially distanced and wearing masks and stuff like that, and they would line you up and let you in and like five at a time or whatever, you could do that. So it was something that I found that kind of keep occupying my time. Plus a lot of the buildings that were having these estate sales were really old historic buildings in Northern Virginia, Maryland, DC. So that was kind of a fun thing too, to get into the building and be able to see these old 1850s buildings and things like that.

4:10 And so as you're going through these estate sales, I'm looking for military related items, things like that. That's kind of what draws my attention. And so that's when I noticed on a shelf, and I should have had it ready, sorry. Was this binder here. And so it had that German writing on the side of it. And I thought, oh, that's kind of weird. And it was like stacked with like all these other old books and faded newspapers and things like that. So you really couldn't even, you know, it wouldn't have caught my attention except for this German writing right here and how old it looked. And so then once I got it and I opened it, you know, the first thing I noticed was it had this military Jeep on the front of it.

4:55 And so as I started to thumb through it, I was like, holy smokes, this is like a battery level, a company level history of a unit that fought in World War II. And so it was all, you know, in their own writing. And it wasn't for people who are familiar with the yearbooks that came out, not the yearbooks, but the books that came out at the end of World War II. They're very highly produced. They're usually at the division level and above, very highly produced, glossy things that look basically like a high school yearbook. But this was not. I mean, this is all hand typed on this yellowing paper. It's yellowing now, but all hand typed by this unit. And it got information from individuals and it had sketches all throughout it.

5:35 And so once I thumbed through it and I was like, holy smokes, I knew what I had. You know, I immediately like tucked it under my arm and tried to make my way to the door as quickly as I could before somebody else saw it or somebody realized what it was. We did the Heisman pose. Yeah. Yeah, it was a cool adventure. And usually, so usually, you know, when you go to these estate sales, especially in Northern Virginia and DC area, there are a lot of military things there, believe it or not. They have lots of Civil War letters and diaries, and those things go for thousands of dollars. And I think, you know, had the people doing the estate sale realized what this was, this would have went way more than I paid like 30 bucks for it.

6:17 This would have been probably $1,000 if they realized what it was, but it was just tucked away with all this garbage and they didn't, you know, look at what it was and figure it out. So it was a really lucky find in that sense as well. Wow. So how long did it take you to realize that this is something really special? In the book, you said you called it gold. So how long did that take? Was it a matter of a second or did you? Oh, yeah. I mean, just looking at once I saw the writing and the sketches, that's really when I realized like, oh, man, this is incredible because of the hand-drawn sketches. You know, I'll try to pull out a couple more here. But you can just see, you know, really incredible. And so that was really what really makes it special, in my opinion, is not just the writing in their own words and their own experiences, but those sketches as well.

7:04 So pretty much once I saw that, I was like, oh, shoot, this is incredible. This has got to be saved. Nice. All right. Did you immediately understand that that binder could become a book or did that idea develop over time? No, no, it's, I really didn't know what quite to do with it at first. Obviously, I wanted to read it. So I definitely read it. And then, you know, at that time, I had not written any books. So it was something I was playing with. And I had just started on my first book kind of playing around with that idea that I wrote. And so this book, it kind of went to the back burner. But since it was all typed, you know, There's no way for me to cut and paste this into a Word document or something like that. So what I did is I actually hired my sister-in-law, and she went ahead and typed it all up for me.

7:52 And this is in like 21, so she typed it up all for me. It took her a couple months, and I paid her some money. And then it just sat in that Word document that she had typed it to until I got diagnosed with cancer. And then I realized, oh, okay, here's the opportunity probably to tackle this book now. So we will be coming back to that topic. So for listeners who have never heard of Baker Battery, who were these men and what was their role in the 69th Infantry Division? Yeah, so the 69th Infantry Division, so anybody who's a World War II buff, is a very interesting division because they were stood up in 1943 and trained at Camp Shelby, Mississippi.

8:35 So this is the entire division. People went straight from basic training to Got on a train and went straight to the 69th at Camp Shelby. And then they trained there for almost two years before they actually got sent overseas at the very beginning of 1945. So just after the Battle of the Bulge, they tossed them into theater, into England. And they didn't even know all through their training whether they were going to go to Japan or go to the Pacific or go to Europe. So they were training for both. So they had no idea literally until they got to the port in New Jersey. And they realized that, okay, we're going to Europe. It's a really interesting division in that point because they trained for so long, and so they had this thing hanging over their head like, okay, are we going to deploy? What are we doing? We're just sitting here training for months and months and months, and finally we get into the fight.

9:20 And at first they were called the Frightened 69th because initially when they got in the theater, they were kind of seated on a bunch of upstarts who showed up so late. They didn't go through Battle of the Bulge. They didn't go through D-Day, so they were like, who are these guys? But eventually they got the nickname the Fighting 69th because of their – Tenacity and their aggressiveness as they drove across Europe and pounding those final nails into Nazi Germany until they met up. And then they were the first unit who linked up with the Soviets in April of 1945. So Baker Battery, they fall under the 881st Field Artillery Battery, which is one of the five batteries that fall under, that were supporting the 69th Infantry Division as they pushed across Europe.

10:02 All right, so this book includes voices, not just from gun crews, but cooks, mechanics, wiremen, clerks, and other people. So why is it so important to preserve the war as they experienced it? Yeah, you know, that's another thing that makes the book so special is that, you know, usually when you're reading World War II history, you're focused on infantry units. Those are kind of the main ones that get all kind of the glory. And, you know, not to take anything away from them, but, you know, that combined arms effort that we used in World War II And the key part of that was the artillery that was supporting the infantry and the armor as they drove that dagger into the heart of Nazi Germany. It would not have been possible without the artillery units. And then even when we look at artillery units, often what you're focusing on is the gun crews, you know, the soldiers who were actually putting the round into the howitzer and firing it.

10:49 And you don't get the full story. You don't get the medic's perspective. You don't get the cook who supported them, the personnel people who supported them, all of those, the maintenance guys who maintained the guns. But what's interesting about the diary that they made is that everybody had a chance to put their input into it. So not just the gun bunnies, but everybody. So the medics, the cook, the The first sergeant, the commander, everybody wrote from their own different perspective of their experience in the beginning of 1945 until the war ended. So that's another thing that makes the book really special. Nice. So as you spend all this time researching them, did these soldiers ever stop feeling like historical names and begin to feel to you like the people that you actually knew?

11:36 Oh, definitely, definitely. You know, it's with the Internet now, it's really easy to find obituaries and find stories about people and so on. So, you know, with each chapter of the book, it starts out with me kind of setting the conditions of where they're at. So I talk about the soldiers in that chapter who wrote about something and it's broken up by month by month. And so I was able to, as much as possible, find their obituary, find more information about them, newspaper articles and things like that of what they did with their lives afterwards. So you really got to know them and you kind of picked up on some personalities and things that they had. Who was the jokester or who was the serious guy or who, et cetera. And so it was really interesting in that sense that they weren't just names on a paper anymore and that I really got to know who these men were and how they lived out the rest of their life.

12:24 Some of them I wasn't able to find anything, which is very surprising for me, but most of them I was able to find something. All right, between their personality quirks, like their humor, things they complained about, their camaraderie, or just ordinary details of Army life, what surprised you the most about their personalities? You know, so what surprised me the most, and I kind of find this each time I do some type of military history, and I'm always surprised by it, is that How timeless the experience of service is. So there's things that they are writing about that I could directly relate to from my time, my 30 years in the Army, my time in Iraq and the Middle East and things like that, that they were complaining about the food, the heat, the incompetence of their higher echelons and things like that.

13:11 So it was very familiar. It was very easy to, I guess, transpose their personalities onto people that I knew that I served with and things like that. So that was probably the most interesting thing. Part of it as well is just finding it so familiar. Wow. Just a continuum. Yeah. That's interesting. If you're enjoying today's conversation, I'd like to invite you to visit MediaWellDoneLLC.com. That's where you'll find everything we do at Media Well Done, from this podcast to our growing library of books. You can also get a schedule of where our authors will be for their next book signing so that you can come out and meet us and get your book signed. Whether you're looking for a thought-provoking novel like Nuremberg, Mississippi, a family in history like the names they kept, or the forthcoming historical piece Baker Battery Goes to War, you'll find them all in one place.

14:03 The best part, All right. So when Baker Battery actually does go to war, what did these men discover that training could never have prepared them for? Yeah, you know, so an interesting thing about the 69th Adventure Division in comparison to the other divisions who went overseas is that they trained for so long that once they got into theater, what they found is that their training had really paid off and they did not have to drastically change their standing operating procedures or anything like that.

14:55 And they were able to really jump right into the fight with both feet and just get after it. In comparison to other divisions who maybe started in North Africa, there was a steep learning curve there that they went through, or the divisions who just came in on D-Day, a very steep learning curve that they had to go through as they pushed inland. But the 69th was able to absorb all those lessons from those other divisions who had been fighting for so long, absorbed them, put it into their own training at Camp Shelby, Mississippi, and then further refine it when they got to England. They did some gun ranges and things like that on the Salisbury Plain in England. And then once they got into theater, they found that they were really adequately trained and they really did not need to really change anything.

15:37 And they could be very aggressive in their posture as they pushed across the continent. Wow. All right. So what does Baker Battery's story teach us about the importance of American artillery and logistics during those final months of the war in Europe? Yeah. The scale of logistics in large scale combat operations is just so mind boggling. And I think we're learning that right now in Iran, how we don't appreciate what it is. So the gun crews in Baker Battery and the other batteries that were supporting the 69th, they consumed so much ammunition as they supported the infantry and the armor as they did their attacks. That they had to build airfields directly behind them just to fly in ammunition.

16:19 That's the scale and the tempo that they were firing at. And that's huge. And I think that's something that we just don't appreciate from our experiences in Iraq and Afghanistan where we did not fire quite at that volume. And now you're looking at Iran, how quickly we burned through our munitions there and how hard it is to get munitions across that far lines of communication, you know, from stateside or Europe all the way to the Middle East without having forward basing. So that's something that I think you can really appreciate from MakerBatter's story. It's just the sheer scale of logistics that goes into large-scale combat operations and really appreciating that. Wow. So this battery eventually became part of the 69th Infantry Division's drive across Germany and the historic meeting with the Soviet forces.

17:01 How aware were these ordinary soldiers that they were participating in history? I think they were very aware. You know, especially the artillery unit. So the infantry on the grunt in that forward foxhole, you know, he's being told, hey, look out for the look out for the Russians. But the artillery units, because they have such a depth of reach with the artillery rounds, they were really tightly controlled at that point because the Russians. We're in front of them and they didn't know exactly where. So they were really reined in on their firing and they had to triple confirm before they fired any rounds down range in case it was a Russian, a Russian tank that they were hitting or something like that. So they were much more aware of that, that, that pending Russian link up.

17:44 And I think historically, you know, and they, they do comment on it and write about it is that once these two massive armies link, so the allies, Americans and the British and I mean, once they were able to link and encircle, they were completely cut off Germany at that point. Germany is completely surrounded. They knew at that point, once that historic moment happened, that the war was basically over at that point, unless Germany produced some secret weapon or something like that. So I think they were very historically aware of how important that moment would be. And they actually commented about it. Once it happened, it was really something. It was like, oh, man. And the war, basically for them, Once the Russian forces linked up, for the 69th, they basically stopped.

18:24 They halted at the Elby River, and they basically held in place where they were at, and then there were some mop-up operations that they had to do, but their war was basically over at that point. Wow. So what happened when they sort of became aware of the consequences of the Nazi atrocities? Yeah, you know, so they... They weren't quite aware at first until they started hitting population centers. And once they started hitting population centers, they started really seeing the dedication of like the diehard SS units and things like that. And so they're finding that they're having to these different population centers. So they were coming up through Leipzig in that area up there and through Germany.

19:06 So there's more of like small dotted towns throughout. So some of these small towns were surrendering right away. But a lot of them were up in that area with some big SS training camps and things like that. So they were very diehard Nazis. And these people were not surrendering. And what they were having to find out is that they were having to level the entire town with artillery before they ever sent infantry in. So at that point, they were learning about this dedication that the Nazis had. And the 69th is, remember, they did liberate one concentration camp. So they are part of that history. But when they really became aware is so once they linked up with the Soviets and the war ended, Baker Battery and especially and all the units really shifted into this occupation duty.

19:52 And what they did is they had to, especially Baker Battery, is they had to set up these checkpoints and all these displaced persons, DPs, that were getting released from the concentration camps, the work camps and things like that, were coming through all these checkpoints. So at that point is when they really absorbed and were able to see the full weight Of atrocities that Nazi Germany had did onto the entire continent. And that's when they really became fully aware because they're seeing all these displaced persons, skeletons walking through their checkpoints who have nowhere to go. They're like, hey, I'm trying to get to this town. And unfortunately, they'd have to tell them, well, that town no longer exists. You know, that town was completely leveled.

20:32 So I don't know where you're going to go now. So they really, you know, really fully appreciated at that point. I think when they were tasked to man those checkpoints, they were taking off their guns. There was no longer, you know, firing anymore. And now they were just manning these checkpoints for displaced and processing displaced persons and so on. Well, so how graphically are those events described in the book? Yeah, they're not super graphic. They do talk to it, but they don't, you know, get into like full graphics of talking about, you know, Maybe people getting killed directly or seeing dead bodies. They did talk about a lot of dead bodies as they were pushing through. They saw lots of dead Germans, and that was a real shock to them. So they talk about that a lot. But by that point, at the end of the war, they're very used to it.

21:17 They're used to seeing dead. They're used to fighting. They're used to seeing the horror of the war. So they comment on it, I think, less and less by the time they get to that point in the war where they're processing these displaced persons through their checkpoints. Wow. Psychologically, things that we would now call PTSD, mostly after Vietnam, after World War II, they would have called shell shock. Was there any evidence of that kind of a description among these people, or was there evidence that they were experiencing that while they were fighting? No, that type of stuff doesn't really start to appear until later, until you have time to reflect on it.

21:59 I did find of interest that some of the people who You know, wrote a lot or contributed a lot to the book or to their personal history. You would think that they were more of like a social person and you would be able to find out more about them after the war. But some of them you didn't. They completely dropped out. A number of them that I did find, you know, they went back to their little small towns and there's writings in their obituary and so on that said that, hey, after the war, they're very content and did not want to leave their small little towns where they felt safe and it was quiet and things like that. And like I said, there was something I could find nothing about. So, you know, it makes you wonder, did they just completely kind of withdraw from society? And that's why there's no record of them.

22:39 But they don't necessarily talk about it at that time. They do talk about, you know, the sheer volume of shells that they're firing. And then, you know, they would literally... They would call for fire on these population centers, and then they would level these towns, and then they would move into the town. So they saw the direct result of their shelling. It wasn't something that was abstract, like, say, a bomber pilot, unless they're shot down. They don't really see the full effects of what their weaponry is doing. But they were. Literally, they were bombing a town, and then they were occupying the town after the infantry had cleared it. So they directly saw casualties of bombings and buildings collapsed onto civilians that they had caused and things like that.

23:20 They don't comment on it directly, but there can be no doubt that it definitely had to impact them. As you know, I never served in the military, but I was around a lot of veterans at American Legion Post 7 in Annapolis because I was in charge of the baseball program and got to talk to some people there. Have you ever gone to an American Legion Post or VFW Post and just sat around and listened to some of those stories? I have, yeah, I have, yeah. Depending what generation it is, it's definitely eye-opening for sure. Are you a member of any of those organizations? I am not. That's something that I think my generation of veterans are lacking.

24:06 We are not really joining the VFWs and the American Legions. I have a theory why that is. I think it's because the World War II generation, Korean War generation, and even the Vietnam generation Roles were different. The economy was different. So, you know, and for those generations, a lot of the time, their wives, the women would stay at home and they would go to work. And then after work, they would go to these VFW events and bars and things like that. But in today's days and age, you know, most day and age, most families cannot afford to only have one income. So both the men and women have to work. And there's no real time after that to go to the VFW and have some beers and things like that.

24:49 So that's my theory, I think, on why my generation has not really embraced those organizations is that we just don't have the time due to the economic, I guess, economic situations right now. That's my theory. I don't know if it's true or not, but that's kind of what I think why we don't. That certainly makes sense. Again, not to make this story about me, but again, I was really involved in the American Legion in Annapolis. Again, I got into it based on baseball, but my interest also spread out among just hearing stories and things. It was getting harder and harder to Keep those sports programs going because just younger dads, younger veterans were not joining those organizations.

25:38 So having to recruit from outside rather than inside. Yeah, and they're great organizations, you know, and I think another thing is that they're also, that veteran service organization, the VSO space is so saturated right now. I mean, there's all kinds of organizations that you can possibly think of outside of the VFW and the American Legion. And so I think it's really hard to, I guess, capture that veteran attention with all this opportunity and all this noise and so on, everybody competing for that same population. Yeah. All right. So let's get back to the Baker Battery story. And there was another story that sort of ran alongside of Baker Battery, and that's your story.

26:19 So you worked on much of this book while you were undergoing surgery and chemotherapy. So how did that change your relationship with the men you were Coming in contact with through these stories. Yeah. You know, once I got diagnosed, so in January of this year, did a colonoscopy and they found this big mass. And so once it was like, hey, you're going to have to have a colon resection, you know, that's a huge major surgery. And then we're going to have to test it and do pathology. So at that time, I still was like, oh, we're not sure if it's cancer yet or not. I knew that I was going to be down for a while. And so that's when I dusted off Baker Battery again because I was like, hey, I need something that's going to help me keep focused.

27:02 I can't just lay there. You know, I'm a big physical fitness guy. I'm not going to be able to work out for a long time. I've got to find something else to help occupy this time and don't just lay there and feel sorry for myself. And so that's when I had everything kind of prepped already. You know, I had my sister-in-law had already typed out their story, you know, transposed it onto words. So I had that ready. And so what I did at that point is I got all of my research ready. Because like I said, each chapter, I do the introduction. And just by luck, the CARL, the Combined Arm Research Library at Fort Leavenworth, where I was stationed at that time, had the 69th Infantry Division after action reports. They're the only place that has it.

27:42 And just by luck, I was like, holy smokes. So I got copies of those. I got everything all prepped and ready to go so that when I was on my back in the sickbed, It would all be on my computer already loaded, and I would just be ready to go. And so at that point, it was still like a project, a history project of me writing this. But once I started dwelling into it more and kind of what we already talked about, researching the characters and things like that, that's when it became much more personal. And it became really the vehicle that helped me heal because there was always, you know, they became, I don't want to say like my friends, but they became so familiar that I was able to You know, each time I felt up to it, prop myself up in bed and just start cranking out and re-exploring their relationships with each other, their experience during the war.

28:28 So it became a very personal journey in that sense. Wow. So what did they teach you or remind you about courage? Yeah, I mean, these guys, again, you know, they were, the majority of them, because they were growing up in this world, The threat of Hitler, the threat of the empire of Japan was something that started for them when they were probably about 15, 16 years old. And then they went through high school knowing that, hey, I'm going to get drafted, guarantee. And then most of them did get drafted, a bunch of them volunteered. And so that threat was always coming up in their most formative years that, hey, I'm going to have to go to war.

29:10 That's like definitely something I'm going to have to do. So the courage of that or the fear that they had to deal with personally knowing that, hey, once I finish high school, I'm going to war. Guarantee one way or the other, unless there's something totally wrong with me medically, that's what's going to happen. And so all of them, you know, comment on that fear as well in some of the writings. And then they all got drafted, majority of them, some joined. And then they were thrust right into the 69th, right into basic training and then thrown right on a train, thrust right into the 69th infantry division at Camp Shelby. And then they were just training for this whole almost two years. And all that's hanging over their head the whole time, like, shoot, I'm going to go to war. I'm going to go to war. Watching these casualties, D-Day, watching the casualties in 1944, they were at training.

29:51 That was happening when they were at training. And then that push across Europe, Guadalcanal, things like that. I mean, all that's occurring in the background. While they're still at training, when's my turn? And they all just faced it and realized that when it's my turn, all I can do is train the best I can, build this unit together with all these men that I'm serving with, and then go into combat and hopefully get through it. So the courage that that took, I think, for having that hang over their head for so long was something that I could really appreciate. And then once they got to combat, there was no complaining. They had a job to do. They got after it. People were getting wounded within their battery and the things that they're experiencing and so on.

30:31 They're not called the greatest generation for nothing, right? So there was some real, I guess, motivation that really helped me as I learned their story more that really kind of helped me through that experience. So once you started this project, did finishing the book ever begin to feel like something you owed these men at Baker Battle? Oh, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, from the beginning, I mean, as far as I can tell, this only like probably like 100 copies of this would have been made for them. And as far as I can tell, this is the only surviving copy that's still around. So it really became like a mission as well to not only get healthy, But get through this story. And the more I got through writing the book, because the book is not just the exact copy of what they wrote.

31:16 That's in there. But each chapter, I take it and I set the tactical, operational and the strategic context of what's happening for that month that they're there in the war. So as I progressed through the book and I got better at the same time. Both of them were like a symbiotic goal, if you will, driving down to get better and then driving to finish this book and then eventually meeting at this apex of I'm never going to be fully healed, but at least I'm in a much better position than I was and then the book is complete. It's definitely two parallel goals that happen at the same time. Oh, nice. I don't think you're aware of this, but first, two things here.

31:57 First, we're talking about the American Legion again. Did you know that it was founded in Paris, France? I did, I did, yeah. And I happened to be in Paris, like right around the corner from where the meeting was held with Teddy Roosevelt Jr. and the others who started the American Legion, when you sent me the manuscript. And so I saw that and I want this. I want to be the one to publish this. And then you started sending me texts and said, you're on vacation. We can deal with this when you get back. But I was legitimately excited about it. I wanted to get started right away. Of course, my wife didn't appreciate that because we were on vacation.

32:40 Certainly wasn't your fault. So if you had not walked into that estate sale and recognized the significance of that binder, what do you think would eventually happen to it? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, hopefully somebody else would have realized what it was and maybe scooped it up. Otherwise, because it was stacked up with all this other kind of garbage, old newspapers and things like that, it probably just would have ended up in the trash. After the estate sale, if nobody had bought it, they probably just would have dumped it. So definitely a good thing I stumbled across it. Yeah, the whole thing sounds like a movie script.

33:22 Hopefully someday it will be, but I could easily see that being sort of a magical moment in the movie. Definitely, definitely. So how many important pieces of history do you think are just sitting around in people's attics and garages? Oh, tons, tons. Yeah, I mean, tons, you know. And, you know, it's the more recent stuff that's still sitting in people's homes because they still have a connection to it. So they're not donating it to archives or they're not throwing it away, unfortunately. So for like, like, hey, these are my dad's letters from Vietnam and my grandfather's letters from the Korean War, World War II. So there's still a personal connection and they're keeping it within their family.

34:06 And then as families get older and then kids inherit things, they may not see the importance of it or they lose that connection because it's a little bit further. Now it's my great, great, great grandfather's letter or something like that. So hopefully anybody listening to this, if you have things like that, you know, get them into the archives, unless you want to do something personal with it. But I mean, you know, definitely get into the archives. Don't throw it away. Even though you might think, oh, this is my, you know, fifth grandfather removed or whatever. It's not important. It is. Even if they didn't, you know, serve in like a combat unit, it's still an important piece of history. So definitely that's kind of my plug right now. I guess my call to action, anybody listening to this, if you've got something Definitely throw it into the archives if you no longer have that personal connection with it.

34:47 But yeah, there's tons of stuff out there, definitely. All right. So these men created this history in 1945 so that they wouldn't forget one another. Here we are 81 years later. What does it mean to you that you're now the one helping to make sure that the rest of us don't forget them? Yeah, I know. I mean, it means a lot. I mean, it does because, you know, being a veteran myself, um, Serving in Iraq and Afghanistan, there was a lot of buildings that were there that we named after certain people that were killed in the conflict and so on. And now those buildings, they're still there, but those names have been erased off of them. So a lot of those personal memorials that we did...

35:28 They're definitely gone. And now a lot of the stories are, believe it or not, already from the GWAT wars are already starting to get overlooked and disappeared and things like that. So it's definitely important that we saved it. One of the, I guess, sad things that I experienced in writing the book is that the Fighting 69th Division Association, they were very active after the war. And they still have their own website. Nobody manages it anymore. And they had their own quarterly newsletter, and those are posted online as well. So any historians who are looking after stories of the Fighting 69th, you know, in any capacity, look in those newsletters because the men from the various battalions and so on wrote into those newsletters all kinds of personal stories about their experience, about the PTSD things that you mentioned, about the The things they saw the Nazis doing in the camps and things like that about the Soviet link up.

36:21 So if you're a historian or just general interest in that tons of firsthand accounts that are in there. But what I found is that, you know, immediately after the war, they stand up this organization. There's lots of activity. And then as you move forward. In the back page of these newsletters, they had a memoriam page of people who had passed away. And it started out initially as one page. But as the decades went past, you know, it was multiple pages now that were in the back of those newsletters. And you watch that activity drop off until eventually, you know, the final newsletters like, hey, we just don't have enough people anymore who are not healthy enough to do this annual link up that they used to do. And so it was kind of really sad just to watch that slowly disappear.

37:04 And then they try to have their descendants start this 69 Division Association on Facebook. And they stood that up and that's still there, but that's kind of slowly dwindled away as well. So, you know, watching that happen and then having the opportunity to, I guess, pick up that mantle, if you will, and get this book out to kind of continue their story is definitely something I took great, great pride in. Thanks. All right. I've got a lightning round of questions to wind up the conversation, but before we do, Before we get to that, I want you to just summarize the book for me and tell people why this is a book they need to have on their shelves. Sure. So anybody who has a passion for World War II history, military history, stories of firsthand accounts of veterans at conflict, definitely need to get this on their bookshelf because it tells and presents a completely different perspective of a traditional military history book.

38:02 So it has everything for everyone. So it has a strategic concept, context, operational, that tactical view. And then it has the firsthand accounts from everyone, from the gun bunnies all the way down to the cook, to the person who drove that maintenance truck following them behind them. So it has something for everybody. And it is a very unique history of World War II that you definitely do not find every day. And especially about the field artillery, you don't find that every day as well. You don't find the firsthand accounts every day that completely captures it from the time they get into theater, excuse me, the time they enter training all the way into the time that you're completing the war. So it's a fully well-rounded history of a unit of Americans who go into World War II and defeat Nazi Germany from the tactical, operational, and strategic context in their firsthand words.

38:53 Yeah, this is really exciting. And full disclosure here, just to make sure I'm completely open and transparent. If you're a regular listener of this podcast, you hear at the beginning and the end, it said, this is a production of Media Well Done LLC. And Media Well Done is my publishing company. Obviously, we produce this podcast. But we also published books. And until this book, the Baker Battery book that we're talking about, I had only published my own books. And so I'm really proud to have this book as the first book, the first outside author, quote unquote. And I want to tell stories that could easily be forgotten. You talked about potentially having that binder thrown into trash if somebody didn't recognize how significant it was.

39:39 Those are the kind of stories that if nobody picks them up and retells them, they just get forgotten about. They become somebody's fantasy tales that you don't really have any evidence to support. And so I'm really proud to be able to produce this book. And I'm excited for people to get a chance to read it when it comes out in early November. And get it signed by you up there in New England and wherever else you might go. This is a significant project. And again, I'm proud of it. I'm proud of you. I'm glad you took the time. I'm glad this was therapeutic for you while you were going through the cancer treatment. This is a big deal. And I'm glad to be a part of it. No, I'm definitely honored to be working with you, Mel.

40:21 I'll give a plug for Media Well Done. Any prospective authors who kind of work in that genre that Mel is looking for? Definitely send him a pitch if you've got a project. I've worked with other publishers, and the personal touch that Mel is willing to give you right now and the investment that he's willing to make into the project is something I've never experienced before with any other publisher. So definitely consider him if you've got that project that fits what he is looking for. Definitely send him a pitch. Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, so let's get to this lightning round. I'm going to ask you some questions and just give me a quick answer. Whatever pops on the top of your head first.

41:01 All right. Soldier in the book you'd most likely have a beer or a cup of coffee with? Oh, George Custis. He's the one who was really driven behind it to gather all the stories. And he's the one that drove to get it printed and the one that had them repair the printer in the IG Farben building that they were occupied and to print off. So he was the one that really was behind it all. So definitely George Custis. Okay. Most surprising thing you discovered? I guess what goes into field artillery, what goes into the whole process of providing that direct fire support. You know, I knew about it, but I didn't really know about it until the research.

41:42 I really had to go into the book so I could speak to it intelligently. So that's kind of, I guess, what surprised me the most is how much, how mathematically involved it is. You can't just put it around the gun and shoot it downrange. There's a whole bunch of calculations that go into it that I had no idea about. Wow. So what's the funniest Baker Battery story? Let's see. So there's a bunch of stories, actually, of close calls with when they run over mines or they get counter battery fire from the Germans. And so kind of the most interesting story, I guess the funniest one. Was a bunch of them got wounded and they went to this field hospital and above the sign of the field hospital, it said, you know, you came in whole and you're going to leave whole or something like that.

42:26 And then the doctors told them, hey, we have not had anybody die on this table yet. So that's not really a funny story, but I guess it's kind of a really interesting story, you know, having to work in field hospitals. You have served in the military to have that kind of humor. Yeah, yeah, it's dark humor for sure. So a bunch of dark humor stories. Definitely a bunch of dark humor stories. Yeah, tons. What's the most moving artifact in the binder? Definitely the sketches. I mean, 100%, that's definitely what sets it apart. And that's what's going to be in the book as well, is all those personal sketches they did. That's really, I think, the most interesting part of it, to have those sketches go along with their words.

43:07 Yeah, there was one of the sketches on the front cover and it immediately captured my attention and I thought was the most interesting one of an unfortunate site of a burial of two service members and the Christian cross and the Jewish star of David right next to each other. That really had a strong impact on me considering what the stakes were against the Germans and who was being harmed the most. So what was your favorite sketch? I would think the one with the gun in action. I think it's on the back cover of the book. That was probably my most favorite one. Okay. One World War II battlefield you'd recommend everyone visit?

43:50 Oh, wow. So if you can get to Europe, I've been there several times and walked both the World War and World War II battlefields. I would try to get off the beaten path because there is so much stuff still left there. All the foxholes, the various locations where they dug in. I mean, you can just see artifacts laying around. So I would say anywhere that's off the beaten path because there's these gigantic armies moving across the continent. So if you just go to D-Day, not taking anything away from that, things like that, you kind of see the, I don't want to say touristy, but you see the kind of presented package story for you. But once you start following the armies, and it's very easy to do, you'll start seeing all kinds of interesting things.

44:32 Little towns that have little memorials everywhere, to the fallen, to the Jews who were killed in that town or whatever. I mean, there's all kinds of stuff you can discover if you get off the beaten path and kind of follow the armies as they move across the continent. Okay. Historian you most enjoy reading? Oh, I would say Rick Atkinson. He's probably the one I really like the best. And I try to mimic him a little bit because he really dives into those personal touches, you know, looking into letters and diaries and things like that to kind of give the full account. And I try to definitely do the same and put that personal touch on it and not just focus on like what a senior leader said or what an after action report said, but try to give the whole perspective of it.

45:17 Nice. One misconception about artillery you'd like to correct. Hmm. I would probably attribute this to all long-range fires, is that I guess there's kind of a belief that they are extremely destructive, which they are, but they are not as destructive as you would think they are. So when you're pouring fire through artillery or through tomahawks or through those other long-range things right now in Iran, And you empty all these munitions onto a populated area. You think, oh, there can't be anybody left after that. Well, you'd be surprised how much is still left. And you still need the infantry. You still need that whole combined arms approach.

46:01 You know, no one arm can do it. So the armor can't do it by themselves. The artillery can't do it by themselves. Field artillery can't do it by themselves and everything that goes in between to support them logistically and so on. You need that whole combined arms approach. And I think the second thing is that, you know, you cannot win a war from a distance. I think we're learning that right now in Iran. So that's another thing that's true with artillery is, you know, you can't just dump a bunch of fires onto something and then call it quits and call it a decisive engagement and decisive operation that you want. All right. Last question of the day. One word that describes Baker Battery. One word. I would say intoxicating.

46:47 No, I think just reading their words in that first-hand account to a historian and somebody who's interested in personal stories and things like that is going to find it really intoxicating because they really come at it from all angles and give you that full breadth and depth of their perspective of that time at war. So I think that's probably the word I would use. Okay. That's a good way to wind down the episode. A retired Lieutenant Colonel and military historian, Patrick Naughton Jr. has been my guest today. Patrick, thank you so much for being here. I appreciate it. And thanks for coming back. Yeah, no, thanks for having me back on. I really enjoyed the conversation. All right. Patrick's book, Baker Battery Goes to War, is published by Media Well Done and will be launched on November 11th.

47:29 That's Veterans Day, November 11th. That was Stories from Real Life. Join us again next week for another great storytelling journey. See you next time.

48:22 Stories from Real Life is a production of Media Well Done, LLC.